Curse

Drithlan · Jul 04, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

I have a problem wit hthe way illusionary weponary works, or is worded

Illusionary Weaponry {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 30 seconds, you deal no damage in melee, but whenever you attack in melee, target foe takes 8-34 damage.

in no way does this skill say you dont hit but when i use a warrior skill like say

Disrupting Chop - Axe Attack
If it hits, this attack interrupts the target's current action. If that action was a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.

it wont interupt nor do i gain adrenaline.

Now, For a while i have been using a Ebon Sword hilt and wanting the Conjure (earth element) but since that skill doesnt exist i cant use it.

Now if there was areason why this skill doesnt exist i would understand but sofar i have no explanition. if any one could answer these questions i would be most greatful.

::EDIT:: Fixed spelling of a couple words.

TadaceAce · Jul 04, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I do believe it says "chaos" damage btw. So it doesn't tell exactly, you learn and move along.

Its "ebon". Why this skill doesn't exist nobody knows, there is a conjure from the other lines but hey, simple solution. Get an icy, fiery, or shocking sword hilt.

Glipher · Jul 04, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Because with Illusionary Weaponry, you're not actually hitting the enemy, dealing Chaos Damage in its place.

Seeing as how you can attack through blind or hexes that reduce chance to hit while still upholding the effects of IW, it can be concluded that you're again, not actually hitting the enemy.

As for Conjure Earth; it just doesn't exist. Reasons as to why, who knows.

Drithlan · Jul 04, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glipher

Because with Illusionary Weaponry, you're not actually hitting the enemy, dealing Chaos Damage in its place.

Seeing as how you can attack through blind or hexes that reduce chance to hit while still upholding the effects of IW, it can be concluded that you're again, not actually hitting the enemy.

then why don't i take damage from

Price of Failure - Hex Spell
For 30 seconds, target foe has a 25% chance to miss with attacks and takes 6-25 damage whenever that foe misses in combat.

and the skill does not say it deals chaos damage it just says they take X damage

Mercury Angel · Jul 04, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Well, depending on Mist Form, this could be a very valid complaint.

The last time I used Mist Form, which was a while back, the attacks that 'hit' me produced all of their respective effects simply without doing damage. (Attacks built up the enemy's adrenaline, Sever Artery caused me to bleed, Savage Shot interrupted me, Hammer Bash knocked me down, and so on.)

Illusionary Weaponry, on the other hand, causes your attacks to fail to hit in their entirety, damage, effects, and all.

Both use the 'deals no damage' clause.

Though, in retrospect, the OP has a valid complaint regardless. No damage is in no way the same as not hitting.

Edit:
Chaos damage was part of the old description. It probably still IS chaos damage, but there is no distinction between Chaos, Shadow, and other untyped damage at this time, so it doesn't matter anyway.
Untyped damage, such as those on spells and weapon skills almost always ignore armor. I'm not sure about Choking Gas at the moment.

As for Conjure Earth not existing, conjectures over that have dated back quite a bit, and one possibility that comes up recurringly is that as a heavily defensive line, Arena Net simply didn't want to give Earth the Conjure. Earth has far less damaging skills than Water, Fire, or Air.

samifly · Jul 04, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Agreed - it needs to be worded better or fixed.

Drithlan · Jul 04, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

As for Conjure Earth not existing, conjectures over that have dated back quite a bit, and one possibility that comes up recurringly is that as a heavily defensive line, Arena Net simply didn't want to give Earth the Conjure. Earth has far less damaging skills than Water, Fire, or Air.

Well here is their chance to give earth something more. most people would have resist fire, water, air in their armor or stances, mesmer, but add earth damage to your attack and it makes them use some of the less used mods/skills for defending vs. earth.

Drithlan · Jul 04, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

any one else have something to say on this topic?

Terra Xin · Jul 04, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

You take damage from empathy and not price of failure. This means that your IW attacks don’t miss, (or more accurately "Cannot" miss) but for a spell like empathy, you are struck whenever you attack.

OK, so lets get this cleared up. IW acknowledges attacks. And an 'attack' is performed before blind, miss, dodge and evasion are calculated. Much like how you lose energy the moment you activate the spell.

The next part of the attack is the hit. IW doesn’t acknowledge this. One reason. Only physical 'attacks' can be accompanied by a hit. If it is a magical attack, the 'hit' will hit regardless and will not be affected by blind... Magical projectiles are different, i’m actually not sure how they work with evade or block.

OK so what IW effectively does is it eliminates the 'hit' end of the attack, and replaces it with the properties of a magical 'hit' which cannot be ... well you know. The only problem with magical hits, is that they dont adhere or relate to physical hits. So for the axe skill "distrupting chop" which requires a physical 'hit' can no longer be done because of this.

To back up my... err, the..sis, that is why adrenaline cannot be gained while under the effects of IW. you need a physical 'hit' to gain adrenaline, but when you convert the 'hit' towards the properties of a magical hit, then different things apply.

Another trait about IW is that it is non-elemental.. Chaos would be its likely damage, but there’s no real significant difference nor are there any defences between shadow/chaos/holy. Because its non-elemental, it can ignore armour in most cases.

Price of failure becomes irrelevant to an IW Mesmer because this physical 'hit' condition has been removed by the spell, and replace by the magical 'hit' which cant be avoided. (Example, deep freeze, enervating charge, energy surge, dark pact... all of these spells are magical 'hits' and cannot be physically defendable...well...)

Quote:

For 30 seconds, you deal no damage in melee, but whenever you "attack" in melee, target foe "takes 8-34 damage".

There actually is nothing wrong with the wording, it’s just all of the hidden information behind it that can run someone a mock. But then again, it IS an illusion spell^^.

From the quote, you can take this apart and say, in order for you to do 8...34 (chaos) damage to target foe, you must have a melee weapon, and you must be attacking with it. Each attack you make will meet the requirements of this spell.

And there you have it. Now bow down to your mesmer^^.

Draikin · Jul 04, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

There's a topic concerning where you post about improvements in English language used in GW:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3055685

In fact somebody already mentioned the (incorrect?) skill description for IW in that topic, it's also mentioned here:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/List_of_skill_anomalies

EDIT: Terra's explanation does make sense, so perhaps the skill could be reworded to "For 30 seconds, you no longer hit target foe in melee..." to clear up the confusion?

Drithlan · Jul 05, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I understand that this has been brought up before but then why has it not been fixed?

lishi · Jul 05, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

i guess conjure earth dont exist for some combo who the game designer think unbalaced.

like.

conjure and armor earth.

the point you put on earth in tha case give you armor and damage...

unholy guardian · Jul 05, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

i say fix the wording

Drithlan · Jul 05, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

im working on A way to fix it it should be done by noon (PDT) tomarow

Nightwish · Jul 05, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Well, as already been said, conjure+armor skills from earth line may lift the status of this attribute above others (in pve at least).

Another possible explanation is that earth is very similar to physical properties, hence, conjuring earth does not seem that fitting compared to lighting, water and fire, which seem more "elemental".

Drithlan · Jul 05, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Me using IW:
Illusionary Weaponry {Elite} - Enchantment Spell - (does not gain adrenaline / assassin notches, or apply attacks conditions / abilities.)
For 30 seconds, you deal no damage in melee, but whenever you attack in melee, target foe takes 8-34 damage.

Nightmare Weapon - Weapon Spell - (IW is considered an attack yet this spell does nothing)
For 12 seconds, target ally has a Nightmare Weapon. Target ally's next successful attack is reduced by 10-42 damage and steals up to 10-42 Health.

Wailing Weapon - Weapon Spell - Does not work with IW
For 5-10 seconds, target ally has a Wailing Weapon. Whenever the Wailing Weapon strikes an attacking foe, that foe is interrupted.

All warrior skills
1. Do not gain adrenaline.
2. Does not apply skills ability Ex. Interrupt, deep wound, Bleeding....
3. Works with Cyclone axe.

Assassin
1. Does not give Lead, off hand, Dual attack Notches.
2.If you have hit with lead and off hand attacks then put IW on you can use an unlimited number of dual attacks. And do 2X hits
3.Does not do critical hit where as if I was blind I still crit. hit and gain energy.

My Opponent's spells used on me:

Empathy - Hex Spell - Damage was dealt every time I attacked.
For 8-18 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 10-26 damage.

Ineptitude {Elite} - Hex Spell - Dealt me damage and blinded me while I attacked with IW on.
For 4-9 seconds, if target foe attacks, that foe takes 30-114 damage and becomes blinded for 10 seconds.

Insidious Parasite - Hex Spell - Does Not Work (goes back to does IW hit foe or not)
For 8-18 seconds, whenever target foe hits with an attack, you steal 5-17 Health from that foe.

Price of Failure - Hex Spell - Does Not Work (Does IW make your attack fail to hit, miss, or hit but deal no damage?)
For 30 seconds, target foe has a 25% chance to miss with attacks and takes 6-25 damage whenever that foe fails to hit in combat.

Mist Form {Elite} - Enchantment Spell - (IW still does damage even though it is an attack.)
For 8-18 seconds, you cannot take or deal damage from attacks. (You still get conditions from attacks.)

Please forgive me if any of this sounds too confusing, and if it does please let me know what does and ill clarify. My main question about using IW is that with this enchantment on do my attacks fail to hit, miss, not happen, or simply deal no damage as it is stated. Working with this skill my self and a guild mate have not really figured out how this spell works. With the skill Empathy we determined yes I am attacking, but with the lack of conditions I am not hitting there fore the skill Price of Failure should kick in, but, it does not. Now since this is an attack mist form should null the damage, but again, it does not. Looking over Mist form I under stand why damage is dealt by both having deals no damage and IW creates the damage AFTER the damage is not dealt, so why do you still receive conditions from attacks and IW does not give them? Is it because with mist form you are still getting hit and IW not hitting? Which would make other skills come in to affect that do not come in to affect? I have 4 suggestions so far more may arise as I think this over more.

1. Decide if IW hits or not.

2. If it does hit should it not be gaining adrenaline, assassin notches, critical hits, and give conditions?

3. Fix problem with assassin’s Dual attacks unlimited combo.

4. Fix problem with Ritualist Weapon spells not working since I am attacking so they should come in to affect.

Terra Xin · Jul 05, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

*VERY ANNOYED*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drithlan

Me using IW:
Illusionary Weaponry {Elite} - Enchantment Spell - (does not gain adrenaline / assassin notches, or apply attacks conditions / abilities.)
For 30 seconds, you deal no damage in melee, but whenever you attack in melee, target foe takes 8-34 damage.

Nightmare Weapon - Weapon Spell - (IW is considered an attack yet this spell does nothing)
For 12 seconds, target ally has a Nightmare Weapon. Target ally's next successful attack is reduced by 10-42 damage and steals up to 10-42 Health.

Wailing Weapon - Weapon Spell - Does not work with IW
For 5-10 seconds, target ally has a Wailing Weapon. Whenever the Wailing Weapon strikes an attacking foe, that foe is interrupted.

All warrior skills
1. Do not gain adrenaline.
2. Does not apply skills ability Ex. Interrupt, deep wound, Bleeding....
3. Works with Cyclone axe.

Assassin
1. Does not give Lead, off hand, Dual attack Notches.
2.If you have hit with lead and off hand attacks then put IW on you can use an unlimited number of dual attacks. And do 2X hits
3.Does not do critical hit where as if I was blind I still crit. hit and gain energy.

My Opponent's spells used on me:

Empathy - Hex Spell - Damage was dealt every time I attacked.
For 8-18 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 10-26 damage.

Ineptitude {Elite} - Hex Spell - Dealt me damage and blinded me while I attacked with IW on.
For 4-9 seconds, if target foe attacks, that foe takes 30-114 damage and becomes blinded for 10 seconds.

Insidious Parasite - Hex Spell - Does Not Work (goes back to does IW hit foe or not)
For 8-18 seconds, whenever target foe hits with an attack, you steal 5-17 Health from that foe.

Price of Failure - Hex Spell - Does Not Work (Does IW make your attack fail to hit, miss, or hit but deal no damage?)
For 30 seconds, target foe has a 25% chance to miss with attacks and takes 6-25 damage whenever that foe fails to hit in combat.

Mist Form {Elite} - Enchantment Spell - (IW still does damage even though it is an attack.)
For 8-18 seconds, you cannot take or deal damage from attacks. (You still get conditions from attacks.)

Please forgive me if any of this sounds too confusing, and if it does please let me know what does and ill clarify. My main question about using IW is that with this enchantment on do my attacks fail to hit, miss, not happen, or simply deal no damage as it is stated. Working with this skill my self and a guild mate have not really figured out how this spell works. With the skill Empathy we determined yes I am attacking, but with the lack of conditions I am not hitting there fore the skill Price of Failure should kick in, but, it does not. Now since this is an attack mist form should null the damage, but again, it does not. Looking over Mist form I under stand why damage is dealt by both having deals no damage and IW creates the damage AFTER the damage is not dealt, so why do you still receive conditions from attacks and IW does not give them? Is it because with mist form you are still getting hit and IW not hitting? Which would make other skills come in to affect that do not come in to affect? I have 4 suggestions so far more may arise as I think this over more.

1. Decide if IW hits or not.

2. If it does hit should it not be gaining adrenaline, assassin notches, critical hits, and give conditions?

3. Fix problem with assassin’s Dual attacks unlimited combo.

4. Fix problem with Ritualist Weapon spells not working since I am attacking so they should come in to affect.

OK, I have already explained this in my first post, and the list of examples will need to be looked at closely.

For nightmare weapon. the attack needs to be successful. This implies that the attack must follow a hit, and when you combine an ordinary attack + hit, it implies striking for a physical hit. IW is a special case...

Wailing weapon is the same. The attack has to "strike" a.k.a "hit" physically. IW does not strike at all, it deals magic damage instead.

Quote:

Perform a spinning axe attack striking for +4...10 damage to all adjacent opponents.

This one is really weird. Now look at it this way. You still hit your opponent, but the strike is magical damage instead, so the +4...10 will not count... thats pretty basic. However, this attack has a separate action that strikes all adjacent foes. This is going to sound even more confusing, but there is a slight difference between "hit" and "strike". Now as i said earlier, IW does not strike physically, but in its place it deos chaos damage, this doesnt mean that the strike doesnt apply to the magical side of the skill used, therefore, striking all opponents applies to IW... ^^

For no. 2 of the assassin thing you listed - The energy cost to use unlimited dual attacks with IW simply isnt worth it, even for an instance of attack speed. I havent looked closely enough at dual attacks and IW to make a fair explanation, sorry^^.

For... pretty much every spell you've listed... im beginning to think you didnt read my post... please read it, im sure it will clear up alot of things you have about IW and magic. But ill go throught them anyway:

Empathy applies because in the description of IW states that "whenever you attack" regardless of whether or not you hit, miss or whatever, the fact that you attack is all that is needed to meet the requirements of Empathy.

Ineptitude is exactly the same.

Insideous parasite requires both the attack and hit compenent to be effective, not just one part like empathy. This means that because IW only has the attack element, and the other part is magical damage, this spell will not affect IW.

Price of Failure doesnt count either, because IW doesnt miss, it "hits" for magical damage instead of physical.

And because mist form blocks "damage from attacks" meaning it blocks physical damage and not magical damage, IW will go right through this one. Now I need to make it clear, because it can get pretty grey with mist form and IW... 'IW eliminates damage in melee. IW inflicts chaos damage instead, but the damage comes from the spell, not the attack (the attack is a condition, when you meet the condition, the spell will then do the damage), so thats why it ignores mist form'.

So let me re-summarise your points:

1. IW doesnt "hit" physically, it "hits" magically. physical "hits" must abide to blind, evade, block and other hex spells that denots "successful hit" and such. Magical "hits" follow the same properties as Deep freeze, Dark Pact, Energy Surge, in that they ignore all that is listed above.

2 becomes irrelevant from my answer in 1

4. no they shouldnt.

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with the wording of the spell, there are just some elements of hitting and attacking that havent been properly researched...

Drithlan · Aug 08, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

well i still want conjure earth skill